I arrived at the venue nervous as hell. I shifted from one foot to the other, worrying about what was about to unfold, when in strides Chris No.2 from Anti Flag, smiling, instantly warm and likeable, pleasantries extended, we sit (well he sits, and I perch anxiously on the edge) of the studio sofa. Fresh from a successful run in mainland Europe, they kick off their UK tour here in Birmingham.
Azra: Like I say, I’m from Original Rock. Here to interview yourselves and review the gig in the evening.
Chris No.2: Cool, cool
A: First off, just want to mention I read Justin’s article on Facebook about the recent attacks in Pittsburgh.
C: Yeah
A: I just found it very moving and very. It’s really hard to read because there’s so much of it going on in the world and obviously the way you approach your songs and your music, you try to convey as much as possible through music. You know, it must have been very hard for you to be away from home and then to read.
C: Well sure, I mean you know… that’s a multifaceted start, but there’s always so much we can do with a two and a half minute long punk rock song. We’re very self-aware that the way that it works is not you write a song and then people hear the song on a Tuesday and Wednesday the world was different. That’s not how it works. I wish it was, I wish I knew how to write that song but unfortunately, I don’t think anyone can. That being said I do think that music has this tremendous power to bring people together, to isolate and destroy the heady things that get built up that keep us separated and whether that be race, whether that be religion, whether that be economic status, whether that be sexual orientation, whether that be the belief in binary genetics or not. All those things can be thrown away when we recognise our commonality because of a scene, or because of a music genre, or because of a record or a band or any of those things. So, I do think that music has the power to change people, and people are the engine that change the world. Going to the anti-semetic attack in Pittsburgh, obviously you know the first thing your brain goes to is the video of folks saying, “I never thought this could happen here” and that’s kind of true. You know like, we never thought that in this neighborhood in Pittsburgh, which is a bastion of our community, and the Jewish community that lives there is so strong and such an ingrained part of Pittsburgh culture, that you don’t ever suspect that anyone would attack these people. Our drummer Pat Lived in Squirrel Hill. Christo who runs AF Records lived in Pat’s house with him. These were neighborhoods they frequented. As you mentioned, Justin’s article, he spent a lot of time there too. Our favourite record store in town is there. So we’re all there everytime we’re at home and so to know this is going on right in that area that someone barricades themselves in and opens fire on a bunch of folks who were at their most vulnerable because they’re putting technology to the wayside so they can focus on love and focus on peace, and have someone take advantage of that because of fearmongering and hatred, it’s really troubling and it’s really painful and it’s all of the emotions you would think it would be. But it’s also a rallying point, and I think that you know going kind of backwards to the beginning, when you have this thing, when you have music, when you have art, when you have community, all of us are just looking for a way to in 2018 leave behind some kind of document that says “yeh there was endless bigotry, yeh there was hatred, yeh there was violence every minute of the day, but we were raising our hands in opposition to that.” Please let the record show that there were people against it and were fighting it, and we’re doing whatever we could in our power to challenge hate with love, challenge apathy with empathy, challenge cynicism with optimism.
A: Just to pick up something what you said there about how music transcends everything. I kind of find having watched your concerts and listening to your music, your songs galvanise people. Would that be an accurate assumption?
C: Well I think that the band’s called Anti-Flag for a reason. We’re not trying to make you comfortable! And I think that’s ok, I means that’s just the avenue that we’ve chosen, but we also wanna make the things that we do inclusive and I think that nationalism is not inclusive. So that’s why we challenge nationalism out the gate with the band name. We think that racism is the antithesis of inclusion, and so we’re going to challenge that. If that makes you uncomfortable then I think you might need to take a look inward and see why you’re more comfortable around racism, why you’re more angry as an American at someone taking a knee over the national anthem than you are over a person murdering people with an AR-15. Those are difficult conversations for folks to have with themselves, but we need to start having them.
A: Definitely, I think there’s a lot of it about now. I think it’s getting more, it seems to be getting worse and worse every day.
How do you write and record your songs? Do you prefer to work alone, do you like to work as a group?
C: Well we found there’s no right or wrong way to do it. We have songs that people seem to really enjoy that Justin and I wrote entirely by ourselves in the woods. And then we have songs where the four of us are together for every note of it and those are ones that connect with people too. So I think that as long as it goes through the kind of meat grinder of the four of us it will always sound like Anti-Flag and, you know Pat’s a very specific type of drummer, Justin and I have very specific types of voices so once we’re on there, it doesn’t matter if it’s a stretch for us musically. There is an ideology, there is an agenda, there is a motivation behind creating that document, and that seems to overtake all of the idiosyncrasies that make one song different from another and turns it really into our voice.
A: If you could be a fly on the wall in any situation, what would that be?
C: That’s interesting. I mean, I think I would like to be around The Beatles when they made Abbey Road. I think that would be cool. It’s like my favourite musical record of all time. So… I don’t do psychedelic drugs so maybe I wouldn’t love that! But for the actual moments when they’re making music, I think I would like to be around them. You know The Clash making London Calling would be another incredible thing to be around. To be… you know there are obviously documentaries like Selma and things like that, but to be around Martin Luther King and the march on Washington and Birmingham Bridge, all of those seem like the most tumultuous times and when we look back on the decisions that were being made, they were always altruistic and to see how someone had the wherewithal to come to those conclusions would be really interesting to see. Then I’d just like to hang around Woody Guthrie. Yeah that would be cool.
A: Have you always been politically minded? Or you know how some people aren’t interested in politics at all, or have you always been interested and had a keen eye for what’s going on, or is it because of what’s happening that’s triggered it more, more interested that you write about it more prolifically now?
C: Well, I mean we’re all from Pittsburgh, and Pittsburgh is born out of a steel industry and the home of steel strikes that fought for wage equality. Born out of the steel industry then moving to China for a few cents on the dollar, cheaper steel then crippling my uncles and aunts and cousins who all had jobs in the steel mills and factories and my family emigrated to America , my mother came over when she was 13 from Italy because my grandfather needed work, and to see that work go away and to see what that does to a community, that politicises you at a very young age without you even knowing it. And so, I was always sceptical of corporate greed, I was always sceptical of the police because in Pittsburgh at the time, and I think this was a byproduct of the collapse of the economy, is that you have poor folks who are struggling. When you have poor folks, who are struggling you have a police force that continues to keep those poor folks down. So, we had the highest police brutality rate in the country during the early 80s into the late 80s. And I think that had a lot to do with the powerful trying to maintain their small semblance of power in a city that was really struggling. And that politicises you because you are a kid going to punk rock shows and you see the cops beat the shit out of people in the street with carte blanche and that makes you say, “Fuck those guys” and write a song about police brutality on your first record! So, like that’s kind of how that happens. So, I don’t think there’s a… you know there wasn’t a huge wherewithal, I think that Justin knew he wanted to make the band an anti-war band and that’s where the name Anti-Flag comes from. But more so than that we never thought we were ever gonna get out of our parents’ basements, so it was never a thought of having a conversation with you in the United Kingdom at any point in our lives. It was just like “This is fucked. We need to comment on it. How do we do that? Well, we love The Clash. This is how they would have done it.” That’s about as far as we thought. When we played a show in New York City we thought we were Kiss, we thought it was over. So, I think that to go as far as we’ve gone, all of these things are just… they’re continually small victories for us that keep us going. Yeh I don’t think that there’s one moment, I think there’s a lot of moments and it wasn’t until we came to Europe in 2003 that we realised our records were global and that’s maybe when you see the intention of the band turn a little bit and we recognise the reach of what we’re doing and that we need to be more educated. We can’t just say a kneejerk-reactionary thing all the time. And so, we tried to have liner notes that extrapolate on the song. We try to have conversations like this and talk about the songs from stage and make people know where they come from more than just “We’re angry” because we’re not angry. There’s a lot to be hopeful about. And part of what we do is meet tremendous amounts of people who are empathetic, who care about more than just themselves, and that, that’s a… a lot of people who are doing activist work don’t get that. You know they are in an office banging their head against a wall every fucking day, to try to get money, to get people to care about refugees or to get people to care about homelessness, to get people to care about universal education and healthcare in the States, these types of things. And we do it and people clap for us, like, it’s not very fair! So we get this constant boost of optimism to keep going and that’s why we try to bring organisations out on the road with us, like tonight we have Sea Shepherd and they’ll talk during the show and they’ll have people clap for them and they’ll go like “Oh shit, what we’re doing matters” you know and that’s always good.
A: I’ve heard of them through Architects. Architects have a lot to do with them as well.
What do you do for fun? Any hobbies interests outside of work.
C: Yeah, I play ice hockey. That’s the thing I do, and I do it way too much and way too often! I spend all my money on it. But yeh, I always have. Pittsburgh is an ice hockey town, there’s a great team there. When I was very young and impressionable the team was very good and that got me into the sport. And so yeah, I try to do it everywhere I go, I have a stick on the bus, skates with me. I’m gonna play in Manchester in a couple of days.
A: Do you think you would have done that if you weren’t in a band? As a career?
C: Well I thought I was going to. That was the plan, but it’s also like, I don’t wanna get struck by lightning either! So, to become a professional athlete isn’t just like “I choose that” you know, there’s a lot that goes into it.
A: If you could bottle and sell the essence of Anti-Flag what would it be?
C: Hmm. Well, I think that, yeah, it would be empathy, you know. I would want people to recognise injustice when they see it and the way that that is most impactful is when people can get outside of themselves and put themselves in the shoes of someone else. Someone who can’t speak up for themselves, someone who can’t stand up for themselves, someone who can’t think about ways to impact their world because they’re struggling on a minute by minute basis to pay the bills or feed their family or do any of these things. You know specifically in America we have these elections coming up and they’re like “Vote! Your life depends on it!” Sure, but when you don’t get off from work to vote, and your boss is a piece of shit because you work a minimum wage job that’s a shit job, it’s not that easy. You know, you’ve got a myriad of things to worry about. So, it’s a thing that I hope that people that are in places of privilege can recognise. For white males that play in this rock band, we have a tremendous amount of privilege and we’re always trying to keep it in check, and we’re always trying to do extra work so that we can be on the side of those that are most marginalised and vulnerable at any moment.
A: The author Ian Rankin, who writes horror novels and crime novels, he once said writers have a magpie mind, that they go around collecting ideas, picking up from here, there. With bands like yourself touring, meeting different people, going to different places, waking up in a new city everyday, do you think that’s true? Picking up things, adding to your experience?
C: Yeah. Well it definitely is true in the creative sense, like I know that the music is influenced by the bands that we tour with and the people we’re around and their musical influences that they share with us and that cycle goes on and on. But I also know what we do is very monotonous and a little bit different from a writer that gets to go to the cool coffee shop or the cool square and just take it all in. We’ve got a shitty club like this tomorrow night and a shitty, like, the people are very kind, don’t get me wrong! That’s not what I mean! I just mean, it’s cold it’s dank, it’s not… necessarily the most inviting place to be creative because you are in a survival mode when you’re in them! So that being said, you know, it ebbs, and it flows, you know. The other day we were in Vienna and we had a day off in one of the most beautiful cities in the world, and it was a beautiful day and everyone got to experience that, and that charges the battery to get you through two weeks of when it’s cold and it’s raining and your stage clothes are soaked and they never get dry cos it’s too cold, you know and you’re putting on cold, wet clothes everyday to do the show. So, yeh, I mean, I will never say we’re not fortunate, because we are very fortunate, we are very lucky that we get to do what we do for a living and we get to meet so many amazing people in that process, but it’s not easy. And there’s a reason we work as hard as we do and it’s something, we truly believe in. But yeh, I mean I like to think that we’re cataloguing cool things all the time, but I will tell you there are many days where I don’t get out of bed. So, it takes a back burner for self-preservation.
A: That ties in very nicely with the next question! Share some of your best and worst touring experiences.
C: Yeahhh
A: I think the wet clothes comes in!
C: I mean, well that’s the thing, like you know, we don’t stop regardless of what’s happening, and so we’ll be in Canada in the winter so the roads will close down on you while you’re on them and you’re stuck in a van on the side of the road during a blizzard because you tried to get from Edmonton to Calgary and they told you not to and you tried to anyway! So, you know, so specific ones, you know like, that’s really hard, we’ve had so many, many terrible things happen to us in any given day. But I will say that this last week we did two of our own festivals, one in Haarlem in the Netherlands and one in Wiesbaden which was our last show in Germany. To be able to do something new and cool twenty-five years into being a band, that’s a remarkable thing, like, that we’re not just kind of resting on our laurels and, not to pump our own tires but I did look around at us and say “Good job guys”, like you could have easily just played the same venue and just done the same show that you always do, but we took a risk, we brought all these people together, we created our own festival, we had great organisations, this organisation called Hardcore Help is currently raising money to take wheelchairs to Africa, Sea Shepherd, Amnesty International, Kein Bock auf Nazis which is a German anti-fascist organisation. All of these people came together to do something that is bigger than just a concert, and you know moments like that where you’re like “Alright”, like even if the world apocalypse happens the way it may be on schedule to do, like someone’s gonna trip over this document and say like “Ok well, these kids tried, these people here tried” and that means something.
A: Would you be a superhero or a super-villain and what would your powers be?
C: Oh my gosh, I don’t know. I would like to think I’d be a superhero but there’s a very, like, depends on, you know, if Donald Trump is the president, you’re a villain if you’re doing good things! So, I don’t know. I definitely wanna fly, I think that would be super cool. But yeah, I don’t think it’s up to me if I’m the superhero or villain. I’m just gonna try to do good and then whatever the moral compass is pointing to, being good or bad, that’s gonna tell that.
A: Would you want to be invisible?
C: That would be nice, invisible would be nice.
A: Is there any subject matter that you would never write about, or that you would find difficult to write about?
C: No, no, I mean I don’t think anything is off the table as far as conversations that we would have as a band, but I also know that very, very long ago we learnt to just say “We don’t know.” And when you’re in a political band or you’re making political statements with your art, people expect you to be educated on all issues and that’s just impossible because we’re in a van or in a bus driving around all the fucking time. And, so, what we found is when people would say “Hey, you’re in Birmingham, X, Y and Z is happening here. Did you know that?” We just gotta say no because if we try to lie and muddy our way through it, you know, people see through bullshit. So, there’s a lot happening in this world that we don’t know about, that we are uneducated about. If there’s an issue that you’re… that the people are gonna see this care about, and we’re not touching on it, I encourage you to make your own zines, make your own magazines, start your own band, create your own art and do it because if you’re not true to it and not passionate about it people will see through that and it won’t connect as well as if you’re making statements that you truly and emphatically believe in.
A: Which question do you dread being asked?
C: That one. Don’t set me up like that!
A: It’s not a set up! Not a setup, not at all.
C: Yeah, I don’t mind any questions, I honestly don’t mind any questions. I mean, you know, people will ask a lot of question about what it’s like to be in a band on tour and things like that, and it really is hard and it changes and it’s not something that I like to answer that question because I don’t like to sound like I’m complaining about what we do, you know, but at the same time it’s not and easy lifestyle to choose.
A: Do you think after being in a band for so many years and seeing so many things, not just technologically, but everything’s changed. How do you think it’s changed you as a person?
C: Well, I like to believe I’m more patient, and more kind, and all of those things that any of us want as we get older and as we grow as human beings. I know that that’s not always the case, and I try to be better when I can be, you know? But yeah, just like anything, if you do it for long enough you wanna hope to be better at it, you wanna hope to be a better person because of that work and that, you know, I’ve learned more than ever to not let this define me. This is great, and I love this, and it is an immensely important thing in my life but I’m not defined as “guy in band”. I’m a human being and I have my own thoughts and my own needs and I’m gonna go do them regardless of if it lines up with what we need to be doing.
A: And lastly, do you want to ask yourself a question you’ve never been asked?
C: Well, that is a question I’ve never been asked! Hmm no, I mean I think that we covered a lot of really cool things, really important things. I would also say that sure the world is in a place of difficulty and it feels like every day we take five steps backwards. But I assure you that, you know we just spent three weeks across Austria, the Netherlands, we went to the Czech Republic, we were in Germany, and everyday I met people who are paying attention to the world and care about it and they’re young and they’re hungry and they’re active and they want things to be better. And that gives me a lot of hope and I think that we can keep going as long as we have hope. So, I dunno if that’s really what you wanted.
A: No that’s absolutely fine, I want to thank you for your time, really. And I’ve got a small gift. I’ve met quite a few bands and I’ve bought something for you, and I hope you like it because I’m kind of going on, like, interviews and that that I’ve gone over the years. One things bands always complain about is they don’t have clean socks.
C: Yeah!
A: I think they look really cool!
C: Yeah and they’re super Halloween ones too! This is great. I love it, I love it, especially cos it’s getting colder, I don’t have any big socks.
Chris No.2 has a lot to say, I could listen to him all day (and all of the night, The Kinks, anyone?), but for now we part company as he prepares for the show tonight. I must say I’m quite looking forward to it.